Holenderski rząd jest gotowy na „trudną” dyskusję na temat zwiększonych wydatków na obronność
Holandia przygotowuje się do „trudnych” rozmów na temat potencjalnego podwojenia wydatków na obronność w nadchodzących latach, powiedział holenderski minister obrony Ruben Brekelmans w wywiadzie dla Euronews.
CZYTAJ WIĘCEJ : http://pl.euronews.com/2025/04/15/holenderski-rzad-jest-gotowy-na-trudna-dyskusje-na-temat-zwiekszonych-wydatkow-na-obronnos
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Holandia przygotowuje się do „trudnych” rozmów na temat potencjalnego podwojenia wydatków na obronność w nadchodzących latach, powiedział holenderski minister obrony Ruben Brekelmans w wywiadzie dla Euronews.
CZYTAJ WIĘCEJ : http://pl.euronews.com/2025/04/15/holenderski-rzad-jest-gotowy-na-trudna-dyskusje-na-temat-zwiekszonych-wydatkow-na-obronnos
Zasubskrybuj nasz kanał.Euronews jest dostępny na Dailymotion w 12 językach
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NewsTranscript
00:00Muzyka
00:08With huge pressure coming from the United States for Europe and Canada
00:11to take much more responsibility at NATO, in particular when it comes to Ukraine,
00:16for the Europe Conversation, I catch up with Dutch Defence Minister Ruben Brettelmans.
00:20He tells me that the United States will no longer chair the Ukraine Defence Contact Group
00:25and also how the Netherlands will have to have some serious conversations about increasing their spending on defence.
00:33Ruben Brettelmans, Minister for Defence for the Netherlands, thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
00:39Thank you.
00:39Now we're here at NATO for the Ukraine Defence Contact Group meeting.
00:43This was always chaired exclusively by the United States, but now it's been chaired by the UK and Germany.
00:49Has the US permanently walked off the pitch when it comes to this?
00:53Is it going to be consistently only European-led?
00:56Because that is a symbolic as well as a practical change.
00:59It has been taken over, the Championship has been taken over by Germany and the UK.
01:04I think it's very important that we all decided to continue the UDCG, the Rammstein Group,
01:11a cooperation of more than 50 countries to support Ukraine.
01:15I think it's also important that the United States remains involved.
01:18So today, virtually, Pete Hex said the American Secretary of Defence was also joining
01:24and also sharing how the United States keeps supporting Ukraine.
01:29But you're not concerned that the US is no longer chairing that?
01:32The United States has clearly stated also today that they remain committed in their support to Ukraine,
01:38that they keep delivering what they promised.
01:40I think that's the most important thing.
01:42I think it's good that two of the leading nations, the UK and Germany,
01:46have taken over this leading role also when it comes to the UDCG.
01:50And yet, as Steve Witkoff, the United States envoy or negotiator,
01:54is in the Kremlin today while Pete Hegseth was online,
01:59we also see the US putting much more pressure on the Ukraine
02:02when it comes to concessions during these peace negotiations.
02:05What's your own interpretation of this setup?
02:08We see a lot more reluctance from the Russian side to compromise and to talk seriously.
02:13So I think it is good that also more pressure is put on Russia
02:16because they need to compromise to a larger extent, I would say,
02:21but they need to compromise much more than they are currently doing.
02:24I think what's also very important is that we continue the support to Ukraine
02:27and that we step up our efforts.
02:29I was in Dnipro myself 10 days ago.
02:32I saw it was the morning after a big air attack.
02:34I saw the impact with my own eyes, also spoke to some of the generals there
02:39who are leading the Easter group of the Ukrainian forces.
02:43And they were telling us that the fighting is more intense than ever
02:46and that Ukraine needs more and more support in order to be able to hold the line.
02:51And I think we need to do that because not only it's saving Ukrainian lives,
02:54but also if the position at the battlefield becomes stronger,
02:58then also the position of Ukraine becomes stronger at the negotiation table.
03:02And if the outlook for Ukraine improves and of Russia deteriorates,
03:06then of course Russia would also be pressured more to compromise.
03:09And I think that's important.
03:11Do you think any pressure has been put on Russia so far, though?
03:14It's hard for me to say because I'm not sitting there at the negotiation table.
03:18I don't know what the Americans are telling Russia exactly.
03:21I think it's very important that we keep the sanctions in place,
03:25that we also expand the number of sanctions,
03:28but also strengthen the functioning of the sanctions,
03:36because we now see that those sanctions are circumvented.
03:39So we should do much more also on this
03:41to make sure that those sanctions are more effective.
03:44But, of course, there are more ways in which pressure could be put on Russia.
03:50I'm always in favour of that.
03:51For example, also looking at opportunities to use the Russian frozen assets
03:55to support Ukraine more,
03:58because that would put both pressure on Russia
04:01and also help to support Ukraine.
04:03Do you think Belgium or other countries are any closer to agreeing to that?
04:07Of course, there are some legal hesitations.
04:11There are also some other considerations.
04:12I think it is important that we keep looking creatively
04:15at opportunities in order to use those frozen assets.
04:19And, as I said, it is important
04:21because we need this continuous flow of military support to Ukraine.
04:25Because, obviously, the Netherlands has been a huge supporter of Ukraine
04:27with F-16s from a humanitarian perspective,
04:30from a legal perspective in terms of investigations
04:32into international humanitarian law breaches.
04:35But looking at your own government,
04:36there is a bit of a split.
04:38There was a €3.5 billion discussion
04:41between the government and the parliament.
04:44And one of your political partners, Geert Wilders,
04:47was against supplying more money to Ukraine.
04:50Can you tell us a little bit about the situation
04:52that you find yourselves now in
04:54as a Dutch government
04:55with somebody, a senior partner,
04:59really against supporting Ukraine?
05:01And how will that fare in the long term?
05:04So, we, of course, in the Netherlands,
05:06we have a coalition with four parties
05:07and we created a coalition agreement.
05:10It took quite a long time in order to get there.
05:12But what we agreed upon is very clear,
05:14that our support to Ukraine is unwavering
05:16in any dimension, also in the military support.
05:19So, over the last few years,
05:21our support has been €3.5 billion on average.
05:23and that's why we also decided
05:26that we will spend another €3.5 billion next year
05:29and that we will accelerate
05:30and front-load that support
05:32so that we can already spend €2 billion of this this year.
05:34Will the Netherlands have to maybe
05:36take money from elsewhere,
05:38other social services, health, education, housing and so on,
05:41to continue to pay for this,
05:42particularly at a time of such global instability
05:45when it comes to economics and finances
05:47throughout the world?
05:49So, if we want to spend
05:51or increase our defence budget,
05:53to a large extent,
05:56so, of course, there is now a discussion
05:57about increasing the NATO goal
06:01and it's about serious numbers.
06:03So, in the Netherlands, we are around 2% now.
06:05That's what's in our budget.
06:06And if we grow to a much larger percentage,
06:09of course, agreeing on that in itself
06:11is not a difficult part,
06:12but how to fund that, how to finance that.
06:15And that will require political decisions
06:16that are difficult.
06:18There are three options, in theory.
06:19You either raise taxes, you cut spending
06:21or you raise your debt level.
06:23And those are all three
06:24are difficult political discussions.
06:26We are having some of those discussions
06:28now in the Netherlands,
06:30but that's only for next year.
06:32For us, an important moment
06:33is going to be the NATO summit in The Hague,
06:35in our country,
06:36for the first time in history.
06:38With the 32 countries,
06:39we need to agree upon
06:40a new NATO defence investment pledge,
06:43a new percentage.
06:44What would you think is the best option?
06:46Do you think that maybe this financial mechanism
06:49within the Coalition of the Willing
06:50might be something that the Netherlands
06:52could borrow off?
06:53Or do you think money should come from taxes?
06:55Because obviously,
06:56the Americans are saying 5%.
06:57Maybe it'll come down to 3.5, 4%,
07:00but it's still more than double
07:02what you're paying already.
07:03What would your preference be?
07:04So I think it is important
07:06that in every country,
07:08whether it's any NATO member,
07:10NATO ally or any EU member,
07:13every country needs to have
07:14this political discussion.
07:15So if we want to increase
07:17our defence spending,
07:18what type of political choices
07:20need to be made
07:20in order to fund that?
07:22And that's not easy for any of us,
07:23but we all need to have
07:25this national discussions,
07:27also in the Netherlands.
07:28And for me,
07:29it's hard to predict
07:29what comes out of it.
07:30And of course,
07:31there are EU instruments
07:32that can support in this.
07:35But the lion's share of this
07:37should take place
07:38on a national level.
07:40Do we know any more
07:41in relation to this
07:42potential reassurance force
07:44or peacekeeping force
07:46or whatever that might look like
07:48after your meetings
07:49with the Coalition of the Willing?
07:50Obviously, I know the Netherlands
07:51would be involved in it in some way,
07:53but do we know what it might look like
07:55and whether Europe could be there
07:57for a backstop
07:59to support Ukraine
08:00with the absence
08:01of the United States?
08:03So I think the military planning
08:05has taken place
08:06over the last few weeks,
08:07so it's now becoming more clear
08:08how a potential European involvement
08:11can look like.
08:12But what we do still see
08:13is that the Coalition of the Willing
08:15consists of around 30 countries
08:17and different countries
08:19still have different interpretations
08:21on how such a military engagement
08:23should look like,
08:24what the objective is,
08:26what the mandate should be,
08:27how it would relate
08:28to a potential monitoring mission,
08:30which is something separate,
08:32but we should take place
08:33at the front line.
08:34Could it happen
08:35without the security guarantees
08:36of the United States?
08:37Could Europe and the Coalition of the Willing
08:39and other countries
08:40stand in for Ukraine
08:42in a way that Ukraine
08:44has been failed
08:44for so many times?
08:45We need to have the United States
08:47on board in the sense
08:48that they are playing
08:49a central role now
08:50in the negotiations.
08:51They are playing a key role
08:53when it comes to European security
08:55and also, of course,
08:56when it comes to the support
08:58of Ukraine.
08:58So they need to be on board
09:00in some way.
09:01I think what we should do now
09:02is make sure
09:03that we have a clear plan
09:04that European countries
09:05can also say,
09:06OK, this is what we can bring
09:07to the table
09:08and then specifically
09:09have the conversation
09:11with the United States
09:12on what their role
09:13is going to be.
09:14But it's too early still
09:15to say more details
09:16about this
09:17because there are still
09:18many different ways
09:19in which the United States
09:20can be involved.
09:21The Netherlands
09:22is trying to boost
09:23its military
09:23or expand its military
09:24and you sent out
09:25this questionnaire
09:25to 18 to 27-year-olds.
09:28What are you trying to achieve
09:29by sending out
09:30a questionnaire
09:31to young people
09:32about potentially
09:33joining the military?
09:34What would be
09:34the objective here?
09:36The objective would be
09:36to have people think
09:38about whether they
09:39would be interested
09:40to join the military
09:41or whether they would
09:42do a,
09:43as we call it,
09:44a service year.
09:44So it's a one year
09:45in which young people
09:46can get to know
09:47our military
09:48and after that one year
09:50they can decide
09:51whether they want to join
09:51or whether they want
09:52to become a reservist
09:53or whether they want
09:54to do something else.
09:55All options are still open.
09:57We don't want
09:58to have any subscription.
10:00That's not what
10:00we are going to do.
10:01We want to keep it voluntary.
10:03But this is a way
10:04to have young people
10:05think about whether defence
10:06and whether the military
10:08would be something for them.
10:09But it's a seismic movement,
10:10isn't it,
10:10that you're doing that?
10:11So we need to grow
10:12in terms of budget.
10:13Of course we are growing
10:14but we also need to grow
10:15in terms of the material
10:16that we procure
10:17but also in the number of people.
10:20We have currently
10:21around 75,000 people
10:23working for our ministry
10:24for defence.
10:26We need to grow
10:26towards 100,000
10:28and on top of that
10:29we want to have
10:30much more flexibility.
10:31So we need up to
10:32another 100,000 more
10:33mostly reservists
10:36to make sure
10:36that if tensions arise
10:38that we will be able
10:40to mobilise more people
10:41in order to support
10:42our military.
10:43Do we know much
10:44about America's plans
10:45to potentially reduce
10:46the troop size in Europe
10:48from 100,000
10:49to potentially 50,000
10:51or somewhere in between?
10:52So far they haven't
10:53announced any reduction.
10:55The US is committed
10:55to NATO
10:56also when it comes
10:57to Article 5
10:58they very clearly state that
10:59but they also said
11:00that Europe should do
11:01much more.
11:02That it's not about
11:03burden sharing anymore
11:04but about burden shifting.
11:05And what I see
11:06is a great willingness
11:07among European countries
11:08including the Netherlands
11:09to step up our efforts
11:10and if then the United States
11:12over time decides
11:13to reallocate
11:15some of its resources
11:16to their own region
11:18for their homeland
11:20defence
11:20or to the Indo-Pacific
11:21or anywhere else
11:22I think the most important
11:24thing is that
11:24we do this together
11:25and that we create
11:26a shared plan
11:27in which they are able
11:29maybe to shift
11:30some of their resources
11:31to other parts of the world
11:32and we as European countries
11:34can gradually take over
11:35some of those resources
11:36but we need to
11:38keep the United States
11:39on board
11:39they will remain
11:40essential to our security
11:41but I think
11:43it's also in the interest
11:44of the United States
11:45to keep NATO strong
11:46and that's also
11:47what they always state.
11:49Okay, Ruben Brecklemans
11:50Minister of Defence
11:51for the Netherlands
11:51thank you very much
11:52for joining us
11:53on the Europe Conversation.
11:54You're welcome.