Can China spy on India using its tech infrastructure? Did foreign powers conspire to stop India from building its tech ecosystem? When China built its tech ecosystem, India made a gigantic mistake. What are its consequences?
We discuss all this and more with Ajai Chowdhry, co-founder of HCL and the chairman, mission governing board, National Quantum Mission. He asks if India can indeed become a developed nation without taking control of its tech.
We discuss all this and more with Ajai Chowdhry, co-founder of HCL and the chairman, mission governing board, National Quantum Mission. He asks if India can indeed become a developed nation without taking control of its tech.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hey, things are changing. Do you think you want to go to Canada anymore?
00:03The world is suddenly recognized that Indians are damn smart.
00:06ISRO has been sending rockets to the space. Are they buying L1?
00:09I think we need to make up our mind who are we.
00:11We are equal to everybody. We are the best in the world.
00:17As a large country, strategic autonomy is essential.
00:19For that, certain rules need to be changed. Certain environment needs to be created.
00:23We need to create an environment where R&D really, really flourishes.
00:30Hello and welcome to Strategic Minds. I'm your host, Neera Sakur.
00:38Today we have with us Mr. Ajit Chaudhary.
00:40He is the co-founder of India's legendary IT firm, HCL.
00:43Today on this podcast, we will be discussing a very important issue that's very close to his heart.
00:47He keeps talking about India's strategic autonomy. Welcome to our show, sir.
00:52Sir, since we are discussing India's strategic autonomy, would you like to just elaborate on this word?
00:57Because this word is in use across the world and you have been talking about it of late.
01:02You see, what's happening is that the world is becoming multipolar.
01:06And as Trump comes in, I think it will become further so.
01:10Therefore, it's everybody to their own.
01:13You have to look after yourself. That's the motto of every country today.
01:17And therefore, strategic autonomy becomes essential because you need to make sure that you have everything that you need for your country.
01:26And whatever technologies are there all over the world, you need to try and get as many of those technologies to be made in India or made or bought in India or brought to India so that we are not dependent on others for technology.
01:41For example, you look at the pharmaceutical area. China owns most of the APIs. We don't have them anymore.
01:48It's very essential that you bring the API back into India.
01:52And that is what will give you independence and strategic autonomy.
01:56We must control our own destiny. That is why strategic autonomy is essential.
02:01Sir, why do you think that India in the last 75 years of its independence has not been able to achieve it?
02:06Because we have tried many times, even in 70s and 80s, we wanted to achieve it in the area of manufacturing.
02:12But somehow, India as a nation has not been very great when it comes to R&D and having its own IPs.
02:18Is there any particular reason or is it not part of our DNA as a nation?
02:22Actually, what has happened is that in the beginning, if you look at it, initially, the focus was very socialistic.
02:29Which was to actually make India R&D dependent on public sector.
02:37So, government put government money into government institutions to do R&D.
02:43What has happened is that the results are very mixed.
02:45If you look at ISRO, very good work.
02:48But a lot of other areas have not really delivered.
02:52So, what is now required is that India must involve the private sector into it.
02:59The private sector has been lagging in doing R&D in the country.
03:04And that is not good for strategic autonomy.
03:06Because how are we going to own critical technologies of our own unless we do R&D and have IP in India?
03:15So, that is where there has to be a lot of push in terms of incentives to be given to private sector to start putting money into R&D.
03:25If you look at the United States, the government initially created DARPA, then created NSF, then created NASA.
03:33But all of them involved private sector very deeply.
03:38So, what does DARPA do?
03:39They give you a challenge.
03:40If you make the product, they accept the product.
03:44They give you business.
03:45What is very essential is that you accept that product, give them business and make them grow.
03:50They have created a complete large number of companies in America using this strategy.
03:57India has never done that.
03:58To some extent, defense has done through IDEX.
04:02And there is another organization called BIRAC that has done something.
04:06But these are very small pieces.
04:09We now need to go bigger on this.
04:11And public money must come into private.
04:16And private startups and corporates should get involved in getting to do R&D.
04:22Now, they are not doing it because they do not find that it can be giving results too fast.
04:29So, they don't do it.
04:30Typically, most companies will go to China, pick up a product, put a logo on it and happily sell it, but make very little margin.
04:37But if you do your own R&D and you create your own brands, as Apple does, then your margins are 40% to 60%.
04:45So, that is something that is missing in the country.
04:48And that is something we need to revive and bring back.
04:51Early days, if you look at 60s, 70s, 80s, HCL used to design its own computers.
04:58We had our own brand.
04:59We fought with Dell and HP and everybody.
05:01So, it is not that we cannot fight them, but if we invest into R&D and creating our own products, we can do it.
05:08So, since you spoke about HCL stays, you know, when it was actually competing with the international companies,
05:14where do you think Indians lost out in this game of having their own IEPs or fighting with the global firms?
05:19Was there any policy change that came in the past that actually changed the destiny of India?
05:24Absolutely right.
05:25You have got the right point.
05:27The government did something very strange.
05:29In 1999, government went and signed the WTO agreement, ITA-1, which meant that from 2005,
05:37all imports of technology from anywhere in the world in IT were made zero duty.
05:43Other countries like Brazil and China did not do that.
05:46They allowed the domestic industry to mature before they opened up the gates.
05:53India did not do that.
05:54Till that time, India was designing, making its own products in electronics.
06:00There were at least 100 TV brands.
06:02There were at least 150 computer brands.
06:05All of them vanished after that.
06:07A lot of the smaller companies, SMEs vanished.
06:10Large companies like HCL and Wipro could withstand the global competition and stayed on.
06:16But even then, the disability factors were very, very high because our cost of money is so high.
06:22Our cost of land is so high.
06:24In an electronics business where the margins are low, every cent matters.
06:30And that is where the country went wrong in not supporting the domestic industry.
06:35Things have changed in the last five years.
06:37PLI has been brought in into electronics.
06:41PLI is taking care of at least 50% of the disability factors.
06:45As a result of which, manufacturing is happening in a very big way.
06:49But all the manufacturing that's happening today is mainly assembly.
06:53It's all services business.
06:55EMS is S, is services.
06:57So, if we continue that direction, we won't succeed.
07:00We need to now go towards creating and designing products of our room.
07:04If you look at all the GCCs in India, like Intel and NVIDIA and all of them, they design products in India.
07:14None of the IP sits here.
07:16IP goes back to America.
07:17So, what are we really doing?
07:19We know how to make products.
07:20We have the capability.
07:22We have the brains to do it.
07:24But we don't have IP in India.
07:26So, this change now needs to be brought in.
07:28And so, about 8-10 months ago, I had given a note to the Honorable Minister and I had said that India must become a product nation in electronics.
07:39And I had given some suggestions on what needs to be done.
07:43He kindly agreed to create a task force to do that.
07:48The task force had submitted its report three months ago.
07:51We are now waiting for the government to take action.
07:54Unless we put money behind creating products in India, how will we ever own IP?
08:01How will we have strategic autonomy?
08:04See, today, you are dependent on, for every product, you are dependent on China.
08:09All the chips are coming from China.
08:12Look at the problem that it creates.
08:14All chips from China will have trapdoors by which all the data goes back to China.
08:20So, all your CCTVs, which are Chinese, have given the Chinese every street and road in India.
08:28You look at when Modiji came in, he said, all offices in Delhi must have attendance machines.
08:36All attendance machines got installed.
08:38All were Chinese.
08:39All had Chinese chips.
08:41Intelligence agencies found 10 months ago that the data went back to China.
08:46Now, can you imagine that the names, addresses, phone numbers, faces of all our government officers today reside in China?
08:56Now, this is where strategic autonomy comes in.
08:59We must make our own chips.
09:02We must stop using Chinese chips.
09:05And this is an addict that the country must pass, saying that if you have a smart meter, use an Indian chip.
09:11If you have a CCTV, use an Indian chip.
09:14If you have a computer, use an Indian chip.
09:17So, what we should be doing is that that is what we have recommended in the task force report.
09:22We made a list of 28, 29 chips which are required for India.
09:27And we have said, make these in India.
09:30And once they are done, use only these chips and do not allow foreign chips to come in.
09:35All right.
09:35Unless something like that is done, we are not going to have strategic autonomy in this area at all.
09:42And we will allow governments which are not friendly with us to have data, which is very, very difficult for the country in future.
09:52Sir, since you are mentioning about, you know, all the data going out of India.
09:56Recently, we saw between Israel and Hamas and, you know, in Lebanon, Israel's intelligence agencies had used batteries to blast the places in those enemy areas.
10:13Do you think that this kind of a thing can happen to India as well?
10:15Very easily.
10:17All right.
10:17Look at all the Chinese computers and phones sitting in government offices.
10:22How do you know that they are not already listening to all the conversations?
10:26You know that Alexa and all these products capture data without you knowing.
10:32All right.
10:33So this is something which is very simple to do because each and every computer in a government office or a phone has a mic.
10:41Right.
10:41Moment you speak, everything goes back to China.
10:44So if they want to do it, they can do it.
10:46And what have the Chinese been famous for?
10:48They've been famous for actually stealing technology globally.
10:53And they have the most fantastic intelligence system.
10:58For example, if 100 Chinese land up in India to work for a company, how do you know five of them are not PLA?
11:05All right.
11:06It's happened with Oppo.
11:07Oppo invited some Chinese to come to India for some work that they wanted to do.
11:12Two of them were found sitting in JNK.
11:14Now, these are things that we must be clear if we are going to open the country for, for example, for joint ventures with China.
11:24Right.
11:24Easy to say do joint ventures with China because you don't make components in India.
11:29But if those people come here, out of the 400 people that come, 10 of them are PLA, how will you know?
11:37So I think what we now need to do is what other countries are thinking of doing.
11:42Like, for example, EU is now saying, Chinese guys, you want to enter our country?
11:48Bring technology to the country.
11:50All right.
11:51Don't, we are not going to allow you to form joint ventures.
11:53You come, give tech, transfer the technology.
11:56We will pay you royalty for it.
11:58We will pay you for the technology.
12:00But otherwise, we want to own this technology.
12:04And around that, we should develop the next version of that technology so that we become independent of the transfer that we took place in five years ago.
12:14Now, look at, I'll give you an example.
12:17Take Maruti.
12:19How many years ago was it started?
12:2170 odd years ago or 60 odd years ago?
12:23Yeah.
12:24Till today, royalty goes back to Suzuki.
12:27Right.
12:27All the parts of Maruti.
12:30And by the way, it's no longer called Maruti.
12:32It's called Suzuki.
12:34Right.
12:34All the brand from Maruti has moved to Suzuki.
12:37So all the parts of Maruti today are still made by joint venture partners of Japan.
12:45And all that technology, has it really got transferred?
12:49If it's got transferred, why are we paying royalty till now?
12:52Why are we still having joint ventures after 60 years?
12:55This is what we need to be wary of.
12:59We don't need to worry about Japan.
13:01We don't need to worry about the US.
13:03But we definitely need to worry about China.
13:06And who knows which other country?
13:08We don't know.
13:09But sir, in this scenario, there is one question that comes to my mind that it's like a chicken and egg kind of a situation.
13:16Suppose if we put this kind of situation on China or any other nation where we feel that, you know, that nation's intentions might not be in favor of India.
13:23China is the largest producer, almost most of the products in the world.
13:28Suppose if we stop importing those things and we levy those kind of conditions and suddenly it will increase inflation in India or it will cripple our economy with that would be complete shortage of chips.
13:40How do you deal with that kind of stalemate?
13:42I'm not saying that you stop imports at all.
13:46All I'm saying is that over a period of next five years to 10 years, become independent of them.
13:53So if they want to make any components in India and they want to set up a joint venture, instead of setting up a joint venture, tell them transfer the technology.
14:05We'll pay you for the technology and make sure that from then onwards, the internal R&D of that company takes that product forward.
14:12Otherwise, we'll remain dependent on China for 20 years on also like we are on Maruti.
14:18So we need to think like that.
14:20Don't stop anything.
14:22First, first create our own and then over a period of start stopping.
14:26So let's say we are importing today 20 chips from China.
14:30In the next five years, we should say we will make 15 of those.
14:34Okay.
14:34Once they are ready, we stop the import.
14:37That's what we should be doing.
14:38We should be sensible about it.
14:40There are certain technologies, especially with regards to chips, where even the United States of America is not allowing the transfer of technology, be it China or India or any other country.
14:50Why do you think China will allow that?
14:52No, no, no, no.
14:53Look, we are not talking about chips alone.
14:56See, the biggest thing that India needs today in the electronics industry is components.
15:01All right.
15:02Because what has happened to passive active components, all these are all pretty much originally made in Taiwan.
15:09Then it went to Japan, Korea, Taiwan and China.
15:14That's the route it took.
15:16Originators are all Taiwanese and Japanese.
15:18Right.
15:19We can do joint ventures with Japanese and Taiwanese.
15:21No problem.
15:22Where they don't have the product, we do with Chinese, but with special conditions that they must transfer the technology.
15:32If they don't transfer the technology, we will remain dependent on them.
15:36So, don't stop anything.
15:38Be very careful.
15:39If they bring their people into India, check them 16 times so that they don't bring PLA people.
15:47So, sir, do you think the government is actually aware of all these security issues or it's just that, you know, advisors like you keep recommending these things?
15:55Because I'm sure the RAW or even IB, you know, they would be wary of these.
15:59They are much smarter than me.
16:01Okay, because they created something called Press Note 3 many years ago.
16:08When Galwan was happening, government came up with a very clear plan.
16:13They created a border nation policy, which actually meant don't allow China.
16:19Then they created Press Note 3.
16:21Press Note 3 basically means that if any FDI comes from China to India, it must be thoroughly checked out before allowing it to enter.
16:31So, they are very selective and they are very well aware that this is a danger to the country.
16:38So, that Press Note 3 should stay.
16:41All right.
16:42Okay.
16:43There's been a lot of clamor in the market that Press Note 3 should be diluted.
16:48Press Note 3 should be removed.
16:49I just don't agree with that because this is where we are very clearly going to say let's remain dependent on China.
16:58Is that strategic autonomy?
17:01So, recently even I think India's economic survey said that, you know, in certain areas we would need FDI from China because China has funds.
17:08So, you disagree with that reading of economic survey?
17:12Absolutely.
17:13All right.
17:13I think we should be, we should do it, be very selective is all I'm saying.
17:18Okay.
17:18Don't open your doors.
17:21Let me give you an example of opening doors.
17:23Very beautiful example I'll give you.
17:2610 years ago, 15 years ago, there was an Indian brand called Lava.
17:30Yeah.
17:31Phone brand.
17:32Many Indian phone brands got created at that time.
17:34All of them have dead.
17:37Yeah.
17:37Why?
17:39Because there was a company in China called BBK.
17:44BBK tied up with Lava to supply them products on a ODM model.
17:50So, they will make the phone.
17:53They will give it to Lava.
17:54Lava will put its brand and sell it.
17:56Right.
17:57What Lava did very smartly is found what the Indian market needs.
18:02So, they created products with a two SIM.
18:05They created products which had long battery life.
18:09So, they went to China and said, can you make these products for us?
18:12BBK was very smart.
18:13They made these products, gave it to Lava.
18:16So, Lava expanded its business over many years.
18:20All products came in from BBK.
18:2210 years later, BBK entered themselves.
18:25Today, they have four Chinese brands in India.
18:28Vivo.
18:29Yeah.
18:29What did Vivo do?
18:30Vivo started creating its brand by partnering with IPL.
18:34Okay.
18:35They spent loads of money in marketing.
18:38And creating their brand in India.
18:41Today, BBK is 49% of Indian phone market and Lava is zero.
18:48What should you do?
18:50Should you open up your market so much, which is unlike China itself.
18:56When China allowed people to enter its market, they insisted on transfer of technology.
19:02And this was 25 years ago.
19:04They thought this much earlier than us.
19:07Why don't we think like that?
19:08Today, BBK in India is 80,000 crores.
19:13What have we done?
19:14We've given them the market free of cost.
19:17Did we ask them for anything?
19:18Nothing.
19:20They just came in, took over the market and happily running AMOC all over the country.
19:27The Nokia brand has disappeared.
19:29All the old brands have disappeared.
19:32Micromax, Nokia, Lava, Intex.
19:36You name it, everything has disappeared.
19:38It's all become Oppo, Vivo and all of that.
19:41These are all brands owned by one company called BBK.
19:45Right.
19:46So, there is one more thing about becoming a product nation.
19:48And while we are talking about, you know, not opening up FDI into every sector or not allowing foreign companies to sell their products so openly and so easily.
19:56But there is this chicken and egg situation, you know, because ultimately India will become a product nation only if we are very good at R&D.
20:04What is it that's lacking among Indians when it comes to R&D?
20:08The same Indians, they go to the US, they do very well.
20:11GCCs, they are doing their research in India.
20:13I think there is some data that says 20% of the chip makers, chip designers in the world, they are Indians.
20:19Why can't they make it for Indian companies?
20:20Or is it that Indian companies just do not pay them well?
20:23No, no, no, no.
20:24That's not real.
20:24You see, there are close to 15-20 global Indian companies like HCL, Wipro, Infosys, DCS.
20:34They also design chips in India for the world.
20:37But they do it for the world because they get better prices.
20:40Right.
20:41Okay.
20:41Now, what has happened is that India has an issue today.
20:47Four years from now, fabs will get set up in India.
20:51Right.
20:52For which the government from taxpayers' money is paying 70% of the cost of the capex.
21:00Right.
21:01Absolutely the highest in the world.
21:0350% from center, 20% from the state.
21:07Now, just imagine $10 billion are being spent of the taxpayers' money, phase one.
21:14Another 10 billion will probably happen in phase two.
21:1720 billion will be spent on asking people to set up fabs.
21:22Right.
21:23Absolutely essential for strategic autonomy.
21:25Because if we don't have our own semiconductor plants, we will become dependent.
21:31Okay.
21:32Which is what happened to the U.S. last 25 years.
21:35They were designing products.
21:37Everything was being made in Taiwan.
21:39Everything was made in Korea and Japan.
21:41They didn't have plants making enough.
21:43They were dependent on them.
21:44Suddenly, Trump came in and five years, seven years ago, they started to take semiconductor manufacturing back to America.
21:53India is already on that way now.
21:55We are creating our fabs.
21:57But who will be the customer of those fabs?
21:59The customer has to sit in India.
22:02Right.
22:02So, if we don't make our own chips and we don't make our own systems and we don't make our own components, who will buy from that fab?
22:11So, that is where it's a situation of cart before the horse.
22:16And that's where when I went to the minister and requested him to form this task force, he understood the issue.
22:22And therefore, what we now need to do is aggressively go after getting startups and corporates to start making Indian products.
22:33Design in India, make in India for India.
22:36And for that to be successful, we need to create a virtuous cycle.
22:40The virtuous cycle is give money for R&D.
22:43Once the money for R&D has been given, then you open up the government market.
22:49Everything that you buy in the government should be Indian.
22:52Designed in India.
22:54Could be a global company also designing in India.
22:56Buy for them.
22:56No problem.
22:57But you must buy everything that is designed in India.
23:00So, what happens is that you created scale.
23:03And then what you should do is that within every product, you start specifying the chip must be Indian.
23:11You know, IIT Madras for the last 10 years has been working on RISC-V.
23:16They have created a RISC-V technology.
23:19Today, the whole world is dependent on ARM technology from the UK.
23:25Whether it is media tech or anybody else, they all use ARM insight.
23:31Intel lost the battle many years ago.
23:34For the phone market and the tablet market, it's all media tech.
23:38So, India, if it's created a RISC-V chip, I think what we should do is replace ARM with RISC, which is what China is doing.
23:49And we are not moving forward.
23:51So, what we should now be doing is taking that RISC technology, creating our own chips.
23:58Then we will be paying less royalty.
24:01Otherwise, we will be consistently paying royalty to ARM.
24:04But, sir, who takes this decision that whether, you know, this technology will continue to be used instead of the Indian technology?
24:11Where is the lacuna?
24:12Is it just red-tapism, bureaucracy or something else?
24:15It's a policy issue.
24:16When we are talking strategic autonomy, government needs to take that strategic autonomy role, no?
24:22Nobody else can take that role.
24:23I can't take that role.
24:24You can't take that role.
24:25Government has to take that role.
24:27And if they take that role that we will ensure strategic autonomy in these following areas, list down the 20 top areas.
24:35And each of these areas, over the next 15 to 20 years, create your own technology, create your own IP.
24:42Where you don't have IP, go and buy technology.
24:46You know, for example, there's a great opportunity today all over the world.
24:50All countries like Japan, Korea, the Europe, all are aging.
24:56Right.
24:57They're even saying Korea will die in 50 years because they don't produce enough babies.
25:02Okay.
25:03So, when this is happening, it's a great opportunity for India to go and buy those companies.
25:09That's what we should do.
25:10So, what has Reliance done for hydrogen?
25:13To get ahead in hydrogen, they bought 12 companies.
25:17Okay.
25:17That's what we should be doing.
25:18And if we do that and we give funding for doing that to corporates, they'll go and do it.
25:25After all, they have done it in many areas.
25:27After all, all the software companies must have bought nothing less than 100 odd companies all over the world.
25:33Maybe 200.
25:35HCL alone would have bought 20, 25 companies.
25:39What happens when you buy these companies?
25:41You get technology, you get people and you get entry into a country.
25:46Right.
25:46This is what we should be doing.
25:47So, it's a mix of creating technology, buying technology and buying companies.
25:54Do all three.
25:55But, sir, the world of technology is huge.
25:58It's like an ocean.
25:59India has since independence, very few companies that had that capacity.
26:04That's why I think the first Prime Minister of India, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, had to go with that mixed economy model where the government will be in the business of investing into heavy industries.
26:13And the situation continues even post-liberalization because we have a certain number of conglomerates who have that wherewithal.
26:20How do you arrange money for that kind of technology transfer and technology?
26:25There's good news for that.
26:26Okay.
26:27The good news is that the government in the last budget announced a 1 lakh crore fund.
26:32This 1 lakh crore will be given to private companies and to startups as a 50-year interest-free loan.
26:41Okay.
26:42Now, you can multiply that many times because if it's 50 years and interest-free, you can see what it means.
26:49It's not 1 lakh crore.
26:50It's much, much bigger.
26:51Right?
26:52You can multiply it many times.
26:53And depending on how you use it, you can actually multiply it by 10 times, 20 times, 30 times, 40 times.
27:00Now, this 1 lakh crore, the government has taken a very clear, strong decision to invest into R&D in private sector and with startups.
27:12This decision was taken in the budget.
27:15Having taken that decision, the government is now working on creating an organization that will look at how to give these funds to the right people.
27:25So, today, the government has already set up ANRF.
27:30Right.
27:31ANRF is meant for technology readiness level 1 to technology readiness level 4 or 5.
27:40That is, you do all the basic R&D.
27:44Yeah.
27:44What we need for product nation is translation R&D.
27:49From TRL 5 to TRL 9 when the product is ready to go to market.
27:54So, this 1 lakh crore will fill this gap.
27:58This is the problem in the country today.
28:01We are stopping at doing R&D in the public sector, in R&D labs, government labs, academic labs at TRL 4, TRL 5.
28:11We don't take it to the end, which is TRL 9.
28:15If we now have both these working together, I think we will have a strategy for tomorrow.
28:23Long-term strategy of creating IP in India, doing R&D in India, creating Indian brands.
28:30See, Indian brands don't exist in many, many areas.
28:34Yeah.
28:34They need to be there.
28:35I mean, we are a large country.
28:38Look at China.
28:40How many brands they have created?
28:43You know, look at 4G, 5G, for example.
28:46Let's take, that's a great example, actually.
28:494G, 5G, till now we had to import.
28:51Yeah.
28:51There were, how many companies?
28:54It was called Hens.
28:56Huawei, Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung.
29:00It's called Hens.
29:01Right.
29:02Right.
29:02China created Huawei.
29:04Gave them phenomenal amount of support.
29:07Phenomenal amount of money for R&D.
29:10And gave them money to give the product to a country on one year interest-free loan.
29:19They created this whole environment to become Hens.
29:25Now, interestingly, India has created its own 4G, 5G product.
29:30It's been created by a company that was bought over by Tata's.
29:36Right.
29:36Tejas Network.
29:37Tejas Network was working on it for 20 odd years.
29:40They became stable, solid, damn good product.
29:45Tata's bought it.
29:46The government did something very smart.
29:48When they wanted to upgrade BSRL 4G to 4G, they said only Indian SIs are allowed to bid.
29:59Having done that, four SIs were given an opportunity to demonstrate their products.
30:06Okay.
30:06Each of them was given a city.
30:07The Tejas, Tejas, Tejas combined, TCS, they bid for Chandigarh.
30:15They were the only one that made it work.
30:18Having made it work, the whole contract of 13,000 crores was awarded to them.
30:24And I think that's a great decision the government took.
30:28Today, now you have created a global 4G, 5G product, which can match any of these companies.
30:36Nokia, Ericsson, Samsung.
30:38When Biden came into India last year, he made a very important statement, which was, we are going to rip and replace Chinese 4G in our country.
30:48Great opportunity for India.
30:51Right.
30:52And another interesting opportunity that is emerging today is that if Trump announces a 60% duty for imports from China and 20% duty on imports from India,
31:08India will have a 40% price advantage over China.
31:12I don't think this opportunity will ever come again.
31:16We better grab it.
31:17Do you think we are ready for having that opportunity?
31:20We are not thinking like that.
31:21But the interesting part is that this morning I saw an article by where Mr. BVR Subramaniam of Neeti Aayog was quoted as saying,
31:29this is a great opportunity.
31:31Let's seize it.
31:31He says, he actually uses the cricketing technology.
31:34He says, if you're sitting in the slips and the ball is coming at you, better catch it.
31:38He's actually said that.
31:39And I think, damn smart.
31:41Because that's exactly what we should do.
31:43When China plus one was happening, Vietnam went and grabbed it.
31:48We now have the opportunity to take the next step.
31:52Right.
31:53Sir, one more issue that India has always faced is that of brain drain.
31:58Well, over the last 10 to 15 years, we have seen a lot of techies leaving Google and Microsoft and coming back to India.
32:05But still, you know, the ratio remains tilted towards most people wanting to leave India for better opportunities, maybe better environment, better air quality and everything.
32:15Do you think these things can be sorted out?
32:18Because if you just talk to an average upper middle class Indian who is a techie or, you know, if he is not wanting to be an entrepreneur, he wants to settle abroad.
32:28Do you think this has harmed India's interest in the past?
32:32Hey, things are changing.
32:35Do you think you want to go to Canada anymore?
32:37With all the trouble that is happening there?
32:42Do you think you want to go to Trump's America now?
32:45They are going to be damn stiff now.
32:47They are not going to allow the wives of these techies to work there.
32:51So, all those things that were open and different till now are all changing.
32:57UK, who wants to go and live in UK?
33:00Every Indian is being hammered.
33:01So, things have changed all over the world.
33:04The world is suddenly recognized that Indians are damn smart.
33:09They don't want Indians to succeed.
33:11So, there is a lot of anti-India movement everywhere.
33:16Despite the fact that 40% of the top companies in America are today led by Indians.
33:24But there is a definite issue happening.
33:27And I think people, youngsters have to choose today.
33:35Should they stay in India or should they go to America?
33:38America will grow at 10%, 2%.
33:40India will grow at 7%.
33:43Where should they be?
33:45The opportunity is going to be here.
33:47So, I think things are changing.
33:50You are 100% right.
33:51The environment needs to be created so that all of them want to come back and work in India.
33:57A lot of people have been returning now.
34:00That model is happening now.
34:02A lot of people from GCCs are leaving to start their own chip companies.
34:07All this is starting to happen, but it's very eccentrical.
34:11We now need to make it like a flood.
34:14And for that, we need to create the environment.
34:18And ANRF and this 1 lakh crore fund, to my mind, will create some bit of environment.
34:24Not all.
34:25But I think we now need to be very clear that we should get Indian diaspora to start to look at India in terms of investments, in terms of participating, in terms of coming back.
34:40And I think if we roll out the red carpet, like what China has done, China does.
34:46I mean, I was told the other day that one of the professors from Indian diaspora professor from UPenn, he was telling me, they wanted a guy from Boston.
34:56Six of Chinese guys got on a plane, went to Boston and sat there and convinced the Chinese guy to come back.
35:03Look, look, we have to think differently.
35:08We need to act differently.
35:10If we want strategic autonomy, we must get our diaspora to be part of us.
35:15Which means Chinese actually track the good people of Chinese origin outside.
35:20And it's very easy to do.
35:21How many papers have they written?
35:23Which area are they doing research in?
35:24All this is available online.
35:27If you want to, if you want me to tell you how many chip guys are there in America whom we should get back to India, I'll give you this list by tomorrow.
35:37It's very easy.
35:39But what is it that is required to be posted?
35:41Creating the environment.
35:42Giving them the independence.
35:44For example, researchers need an independent environment.
35:48They don't want to get into admin work.
35:53Today, all research people in India crib about doing too much administration work.
36:00We need to correct that.
36:01We need to say admin will be done by so-and-so.
36:05R&D will be done by so-and-so.
36:07Number one.
36:07Number two.
36:08If they want to buy any equipment, the process of buying that equipment can be one and a half to two years.
36:15Why is that?
36:16You have made certain rules yourself.
36:20Change them.
36:22After all, government…
36:23It is L1 bidding rule.
36:24L1 bidding rule.
36:25This is all historical.
36:27Yeah.
36:28We now need to think differently.
36:30We can afford to buy L2 also.
36:33We can afford to buy L3.
36:35What is the problem?
36:36So, these kind of changes, which are essential.
36:39So, there is one organization in India who has already written a report on it to say how to make R&D happen in India and what is required to make life simpler.
36:51All right.
36:51And one of my team members from one of our groups that I work with has also written a report on it.
36:59How to make R&D in India easier.
37:03What are the impediments to R&D?
37:05You know, everything is known.
37:08When everything is known, why can't you do it?
37:10Let's look at Odessa.
37:1315-20 years ago, they used to be hit by tsunamis and, you know, all these…
37:19They used to get hit all the time by all kinds of things that were happening from the sea.
37:26Yeah.
37:26Displacement of people, people dying, this, that.
37:28They created a plan.
37:31And the last government there, for the last 10 years, not a single person has been killed.
37:39As Indians, we can do all these things.
37:41So, why can't we do it here?
37:43Talking about this L1 bidding, I think this particular way of purchasing equipment for the government or any kind of contractual agreement with the government exists because there is a narrative in India.
37:55It has always been that, you know, it is taxpayers' money, taxpayers' money, and it should not be wasted, and it should be saved.
38:01That is why whenever, even if we just look at the definition of scams, the scams exist in the realm of these kind of biddings only, you know, that an IS officer who wanted to purchase X kind of equipment, which he thought would be better.
38:15But, you know, because he chose that thing, and then there would be some sort of a government inquiry, and, you know, that guy might land up in jail for not going for the L1 bidder.
38:25And there is this psychology among IS officers and average Indian, you know, that the lowest, the cheapest thing is the best thing.
38:33How do you think, you know, India can deal with this narrative and mentality of L1 bidding?
38:39It's very socialist thinking.
38:41The thinking is taxpayers' money.
38:44What are we talking about?
38:46When various governments give away welfare schemes in every state from taxpayers' money, do they ask taxpayers?
39:00Are they asking taxpayers?
39:04So, if they don't ask taxpayers, why are they asking the IS officers for the L1 part?
39:10I don't understand this at all.
39:12This is a very old way of thinking.
39:15We now need to think differently.
39:17See, we don't think that we are big.
39:20We are the best in the world of the Western world.
39:25We are equal to everybody.
39:29We are the best in the world.
39:30Our DNA tells us that we have the best brains in the world.
39:34We should have that kind of confidence to do such things.
39:37If we don't have the confidence, don't do it.
39:39We are talking about being a Vixit Bharat by 2047.
39:42How is it going to happen?
39:43With all these old-fashioned things to do?
39:46No.
39:47See, in, for example, National Quantum Mission, we have come up with an idea.
39:53We said all the four hubs that are being created will be Section 8 companies.
40:00Independent CEOs.
40:00They are not going to be governed by GFR rules.
40:05They can buy what they want.
40:07So, that's the independence we need to give.
40:10Create such structures by which it can be done.
40:14It's not rocket science.
40:17After all, ISRO has been sending rockets to the space so many years.
40:22Are they buying L1?
40:23If they bought L1, the damn rocket will never reach.
40:27Okay.
40:27So, you know, when we want to do it, we can do it.
40:31After all, look at all of that is R&D.
40:34Yeah.
40:35It's very successful R&D.
40:36Yeah.
40:36At the lowest cost, but given out to companies like L&T and others to make.
40:43Not some useless company who will not deliver high quality.
40:47The products that L&T and all produce for ISRO cannot afford to fail.
40:53Yeah.
40:53So, if they buy L1, they'll always fail.
40:57So, when we want to do it, we do it.
41:00And I think we need to make up our mind who are we.
41:04As a large country, strategic autonomy is essential.
41:08For that, certain rules need to be changed.
41:11Certain environment needs to be created.
41:12We need to create an environment where R&D really, really flourishes.
41:19Let me tell you, the researchers sitting in R&D labs in India and education institutions are brilliant.
41:26World class.
41:28They don't get the openness that is required.
41:32They need to be given the openness and the independence to do what they are good at.
41:36Not getting them involved in admin every day.
41:39So, there is one more issue with regards to R&D, which is also, you can just date it back to the socialist ideology.
41:45That, you know, profit making is bad.
41:48And whenever a company starts making super profits, there is a narrative that gets built up that, you know,
41:52this particular company is making a lot of profits and, you know, it needs to be invested back.
41:56Maybe in the form of, you know, CSR or some other way.
42:00But in the West, of course, those companies also do CSR.
42:03But profit is actually celebrated.
42:05So, don't you think that this mentality will take many decades to change?
42:10Because, like, post-liberalization, Indians have started to celebrate wealth makers.
42:15But at the same time, if you see someone standing out as an organization that's capturing, you know, the market, you know.
42:23For example, the whole idea of monopoly in India is looked down upon.
42:27But if you just look at Microsoft, it had the monopoly for many, many years.
42:31It still has.
42:32Yeah, so, like, but in India, if any company has a monopoly on any sector, the whole idea of, you know, free markets economy comes into that, you know, question.
42:43Hey, this is very old thinking.
42:46Okay.
42:46In India, why does government only buy Microsoft?
42:51I want to ask that question.
42:53Why doesn't India make its own operating system?
42:55So, this is what happens if you don't look at strategic autonomy.
43:00You are forced to do things which you don't want to do.
43:04Today, every startup in this country has to go and buy time from AWS.
43:10Damn expensive.
43:11Right.
43:11So, this makes the job of the startup much more difficult because they have to pay through their nose.
43:17Why can't we create a low-cost AWS from India?
43:20Have we not done UPI?
43:23Right.
43:24Have we not gone and replaced the major credit cards in the world?
43:29Yeah.
43:29We've done it.
43:30So, you know, in certain areas, we have been very, very successful.
43:34And we have done that very smartly.
43:35I think we can do it again in various other areas.
43:38And it's possible.
43:40What's so difficult about it?
43:42And look, who are the top icons of this country today?
43:47Ratan Tata.
43:49Right?
43:49Narayan Murthy, Shiv Nadar, Premji, you name it.
43:56Yeah.
43:56These are the icons of today.
43:58So, this is the new India.
44:01Look at the software industry.
44:03It was nothing 40 years ago.
44:06Right?
44:07Who has created that software industry?
44:09First-time entrepreneurs.
44:12Yeah.
44:12Look at Tata, TCS, maybe one, Wipro, number two, which were existing companies.
44:17But Wipro was very small.
44:18Tata was big.
44:19So, TCS came from there.
44:22All other companies are first-time entrepreneurs.
44:25Look at the startups that have become billion-dollar companies or value of 2 billion, 5 billion.
44:34They are all entrepreneurs.
44:36So, these are the people who are respected today.
44:40The old thinking of socialist thinking that, you know, money makers are not good is over.
44:46The youngsters don't think this way.
44:49It's us guys who think this way.
44:51The 40s, 50s, 60s, the 15, 20s don't think like that.
44:56They love to see Narayan Murti.
44:59They want to go and stand next to him and take a picture next to him.
45:02It happens.
45:04It's happened to me everywhere I've gone with my book launch.
45:08All the youngsters want to come and stand next to me and take a picture.
45:11Because they feel great about getting associated with somebody who's been successful.
45:17Sir, at your age and with your experience, with all your understanding of India's systems,
45:24what are the chances of India actually becoming a product nation?
45:29If you just look at India's current pace of reforms.
45:34You see, let's look at different areas.
45:38Space, we are very, very good.
45:40All right.
45:41Right.
45:41Today, there are close to 100 plus space startups.
45:46Space tech startups.
45:48Brilliant companies.
45:50I'm telling you, out of those 100 companies, one or two will become global leaders.
45:55They will be able to compete with SpaceX.
45:58Okay.
45:58If we create the right environment and the environment is being created because government
46:03has put together something called in-space.
46:05Yeah.
46:06That's helping create the environment.
46:08Let's look at drones.
46:10What has the government done?
46:12They've said no Chinese drones can be imported.
46:16The army is saying, I don't want to see any Chinese component inside a drone.
46:22Today, a lot of those drone companies are importing Chinese components and assembling them
46:26and selling in India.
46:28I think some of them are breaking off and starting to make their own components.
46:34And I think if we put some R&D money behind them through this 1 lakh crore grant that is coming
46:41through, you might see one drone company becoming global, right?
46:47Already, one company is listed.
46:50Okay.
46:51Now, let's start to see two-wheeler EVs.
46:55How many startups are there today?
46:58Two-wheeler EVs?
46:59Around 200.
47:01Amazing.
47:02Out of them, a couple are going for listing.
47:05And I think today, India is the largest producer of two-wheeler EVs, bigger than China.
47:15Okay.
47:15So, if we give them a free run, allow them, give them funding for more R&D, allow them to
47:25make batteries in India, controllers in India, software in India, everything in India, they
47:32will succeed.
47:32I can name 15 areas like this, where India can be a global leader.
47:39Now, we need to bet on, let's say, 15 areas.
47:43Yeah.
47:43Out of this, we'll be successful in five.
47:45But if we are successful in five, 20 years from now, we'll be in the circle of five in
47:52the world.
47:53And that's exactly what we should be doing as a large country.
47:57And that is essential for strategic autonomy.
48:01So, my final question is on the conspiracy theory that we have all heard and read about,
48:07even in popular fiction, you know, on Netflix series, that whenever a country tries to ascend,
48:13you know, in terms of the strategic autonomy, there is, you know, the attempt of sabotaging
48:20that country's technology missions.
48:23It has happened with countries trying to become nuclear power.
48:28Don't you think that India needs to have a policy to safeguard its, this mission also,
48:35and especially the people who are working on those technologies?
48:38I'm not naming anyone, but there are conspiracy theories that a lot of Indian scientists, they,
48:43you know, who were actually great, the best in the world, they died suddenly.
48:48So, what's your take on this?
48:50Brilliant question.
48:52And I think this is something we must guard against very strongly.
48:58What happened to SCL Mohali?
49:01I don't know.
49:03It got sabotaged somewhere.
49:04Otherwise, we were ahead of TSMC.
49:08Okay.
49:09Can you just elaborate on this incident?
49:11Semiconductor complex was set up before TSMC was formed in Taiwan.
49:16So, as a country, we had taken a decision to be in semiconductors much before them.
49:21One day, there was a fire in that place.
49:24Completely closed down.
49:25After that, it lost its way.
49:29Conspiracy theory sabotaged.
49:30Let's name some rocket scientists.
49:36They died.
49:38Who knows?
49:40You are so right.
49:42There will be a resistance to arise as a nation.
49:48This resistance to arise as a nation will have to be safeguarded.
49:55And for that, you need very strong leaders in India.
50:00Whether it's in external affairs or home or intelligence or prime minister, we need that kind of backing.
50:09And we should be very well aware that this will be resisted by the rest of the world.
50:15Sir, is there a proper intelligence created around the top brains of India?
50:19I don't know.
50:20I mean, I really wouldn't be able to answer that.
50:23But I think if we don't have it, we should.
50:26All right.
50:27All right.
50:28Thank you very much, sir, for coming to our podcast today.
50:30And we are very glad that you could just elaborate upon this very popular word, strategic autonomy, which is being discussed across the world.
50:38And I think it's very important for Indians also to understand this thing.
50:42And we are very, very glad that you spoke about all these issues and for enlightening us.
50:46Thank you very much for coming to our show.
50:48And we hope to just meet you.
50:49Thank you for inviting me.